More Deathly Hallows thoughts
Jul. 25th, 2007 07:17 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
ishtar79I desperately need to reread the book. I got through it so quickly the first time, I really didn’t have a chance to digest everything-and the fact I kept banging my forehead against it during the last few chapters didn’t help with my reading comprehension.
It won’t be possible for a few days at least, since my cousin snatched it from me practically the minute I was done. And he’s a slow reader. Buy your own copy, cheapskate!
A few more random thoughts, bearing in mind that the details are still fuzzy.
-She really fucked up the magical rules of her own verse in this one, didn’t she? The Big One being of course that pesky wand mastery issue, but like everybody else, I found the whole Secret Keeper bit a bit dodgy.
-So, Regulus. Given the limited info we had on him before, it was quite surprising the amount of fics and ships he appeared in post-HBP (and even more surprisingly, post-OotP). Still, he was a Black, had a cool first name, and was morally ambiguous, and characters have gained a fanon following on a lot less (See also: Blaise Zabini. He didn’t even have a GENDER pre-HBP!). After this, though, we have quite a lot more to go on-the contrast between him and his brother (and we got both of their room descriptions, yay!), the reasons why he *left* the DE (why he joined should be fairly obvious), the rather spectacularly heroic way he chose to do so. And unfortunately, it seems like he is IT-as in, that elusive “Good Slytherin”, the Serpent House’s equivalent of Peter Pettigrew, as in ‘the exception that confirms the rule’, as in Rowling’s idea of writing a balanced portrayal. (There’s Snape, of course, but Snape is in his own special category, and more on that later). It just feels like such a copout, you know? That the one ‘good Slytherin’ is nothing but a distance memory kept alive by a House Elf’s unwavering loyalty. And I’m sure Slytherin House condemners will claim he was somehow infected by Sirius’ essential Gryffindorness, or something (or maybe he snuck a peek at Sirius Bikini Babes & Bikes wall, and felt that hey, maybe Muggles weren’t all bad, after all. Felt it in his PANTS!).
- Snape’s dead…or is he? Yes, I actually think he IS
Snape. I can’t avoid talking about him anymore, can I? You know, for all the conspiracy theories I’ve been reading where he’s all “Cool 007 Wizard Potions Stopper Death Prodigy and somehow walked out unscathed”, I’m fairly accepting of the fact he is, in fact, rather dead in canon. Gone, dust, he is officially an Ex-Snape. Which isn’t to say he isn’t ridiculously easy to resurrect in fic, of course. I’m all about the AU action! (Epilogue? What epilogue?)
But leaving aside his death scene (which would have bothered me a LOT less was he actually SHOWN more during the book), I’m more about what made him tick while he was still alive, personally.
I never took the HBP ending at face value. I liked to play with different versions of why, but it always seemed obvious to me that his narrative function and all that we saw of him in previous books wasn’t just to set him up as The One Who Betrayed Dumbledore. Of course, it’s easy to say in retrospect, but at least among my flist, I noticed that seemed to be the majority opinion from the very beginning ,even if some accused of ‘knee-jerk reactions’ at the time (and to echo Nelson from the Simpsons : *points* HA-HA!).
Snape/Lily, or The Monster That Removed Snape’s Third Dimention
I’ve been doing a lot of thinking about the way Rowling ‘explained’ Snape’s shifting loyalties, and I’ve come to the conclusion that she just…didn’t. Not explicitly, not conclusively, and not to any degree of satisfaction. Those memories Snape gave to Harry, were only just that: glimpses, isolated incidents that while undoubtedly very important and crucial, were nevertheless out of context, and without any access to the thoughts/backstory in them.
Yes, Snape loved Lily. Whether he was in love with her, specifically all those years after is still subject to debate, imo. Schoolboy crush aside, the fact remains that she was the first (and possibly the only) friend he ever had-why would that not be enough for her death to still torture him after all those years? Why would that not be enough for him to want to guard her son? And hell, why would that not be enough for the freakin’ Bambi Patronus? Is romantic love somewhat more privileged than friendship?
Look at the theme of the book-if HBP was all about the intensity of teen romance and twu wub (as badly as it may have been written), DH was at heart a Triofest, about the *friendship* that binds them (disclaimer: this is by no means a slam on Trioshippers. We all enjoy teh Groupsex). Yes, the romance was still there, and yes, we got the Epilogue Of Doom, but it all took a backseat to the *really* important relationship in the books: the Trio Core. After all, it’s not to Ginny Harry reaches out to after the dust has settled, but to Ron and Hermione. (cue much giggling and nudging from Trio shippers, and the sound of typewriters writing comfort!sex in the Headmaster’s Office. In front of the portraits, for SHAME!).
I think most of us can agree that friendship is a pretty damned IMPORTANT theme in the books-so why would it be such a stretch to assume that having caused the death of his one friend would be such a catalyst in Snape’s redemptive journey? Or that the memory is just as painful in the present as it ever was? Or that seeing some tangible reminder of that person wouldn’t provide him comfort in his last moments?
Yes, of course it can be interpreted the other way, and Snape could be still carrying a torch for her. I’m an UC shipper, I’m all about reading the romantic subtext anywhere I can get it. But as far as I’m concerned, it's not set in stone.
A selfish redemptive journey, or Why Couldn’t Snape Do It For The Children?!111
Some people seem a bit miffed about the fact that Snape’s change of loyalties seem to have been sparked by the fact someone he cared about was hurt, and to hell with all the victims that came before. No Young DE Snape vomiting his guts out the first time he witnessed torture (though I’m fairly sure Draco tossed ALL his cookies throughout the summer *g*), no noble gesture of saving some random Muggle family (and their cats too!), no Sartrian existential crisis about his purpose in life and the nature of evil.
Er, are you KIDDING me? Of COURSE it’s different when it’s someone you care about, of COURSE people can be selfish when it comes to placing more worth on some lives than others! Snape is hardly alone in this. Harry’s determination to stop Voldemort started from the plain and simple fact that he killed his parents. Dumbledore may or may not have developed his anti-Muggle biases of his youth based on what happened to his sister, and was most definitely wrenched from it because of her death, Lucius and Narcissa’s love for Draco trumped even the famous Malfoy self-preservation, Molly mysteriously turned into a Bellatrix-killing Xena to protect her family…need I go on?
Snape in his DE days was probably a cruel, amoral bastard who could justify what he did and saw by dehumanizing the victims-but it’s hard for the victims to remain abstract and faceless when it’s someone you care about, someone who used to (still does?) care about you. The fact that this is what started his shift in loyalties, and the fact that’s why he protected her son doesn’t mean that it’s ALL that there was to his motivation.
Protecting Lily’s son (as well as the one person who can defeat Voldemort) doesn’t explain his reluctance to kill Dumbledore, or the fact the Sectusempra was aimed at a DE, not George (though personally, I would have been amused if it was. That’s for all those pranks during Potions class, you little twat!), or his outrage at being called a coward, or the fact he did indeed do his best to make sure the DE regime at Hogwarts never reached its full potential horror (Detention with HAGRID? Gimme a break). It doesn’t mean that Snape secretely *likes* teh chydruns or that he cries himself to sleep every night over the things he’s done. It just means that when the chips are down, Snape, unpleasant, bastard misanthrope that he is, will still do the right thing.
Why the memories? Well, for one thing, Dumbledore *instructed* him to give Harry those memories. And for another, I don’t think Snape is someone you can just *explain* in a neat and wrapped manner, so it’s better to go with the simplest explanation. It’s not a lie, but it’s not the *whole* truth either-he doesn’t owe that, to Harry OR Dumbledore.
I’m sure the above might sound like denial or fanwanking to some, and if that’s the case, be my guest. Opinions are like assholes, etc. But I’m actually, if not satisfied, then at peace with Snape in Deathly Hallows. He’s more human than we assumed, definitely more emo, and a touch more girly (a DOE?!?), but one chapter doesn’t automatically negate all the info we’ve gotten in the first six books. It simply adds one more layer to a deeply fascinating, flawed, complex character. And I miss him already-you have no idea how much.
R.I.P, Severus. It’s been one hell of a ride.
It won’t be possible for a few days at least, since my cousin snatched it from me practically the minute I was done. And he’s a slow reader. Buy your own copy, cheapskate!
A few more random thoughts, bearing in mind that the details are still fuzzy.
-She really fucked up the magical rules of her own verse in this one, didn’t she? The Big One being of course that pesky wand mastery issue, but like everybody else, I found the whole Secret Keeper bit a bit dodgy.
-So, Regulus. Given the limited info we had on him before, it was quite surprising the amount of fics and ships he appeared in post-HBP (and even more surprisingly, post-OotP). Still, he was a Black, had a cool first name, and was morally ambiguous, and characters have gained a fanon following on a lot less (See also: Blaise Zabini. He didn’t even have a GENDER pre-HBP!). After this, though, we have quite a lot more to go on-the contrast between him and his brother (and we got both of their room descriptions, yay!), the reasons why he *left* the DE (why he joined should be fairly obvious), the rather spectacularly heroic way he chose to do so. And unfortunately, it seems like he is IT-as in, that elusive “Good Slytherin”, the Serpent House’s equivalent of Peter Pettigrew, as in ‘the exception that confirms the rule’, as in Rowling’s idea of writing a balanced portrayal. (There’s Snape, of course, but Snape is in his own special category, and more on that later). It just feels like such a copout, you know? That the one ‘good Slytherin’ is nothing but a distance memory kept alive by a House Elf’s unwavering loyalty. And I’m sure Slytherin House condemners will claim he was somehow infected by Sirius’ essential Gryffindorness, or something (or maybe he snuck a peek at Sirius Bikini Babes & Bikes wall, and felt that hey, maybe Muggles weren’t all bad, after all. Felt it in his PANTS!).
- Snape’s dead…or is he? Yes, I actually think he IS
Snape. I can’t avoid talking about him anymore, can I? You know, for all the conspiracy theories I’ve been reading where he’s all “Cool 007 Wizard Potions Stopper Death Prodigy and somehow walked out unscathed”, I’m fairly accepting of the fact he is, in fact, rather dead in canon. Gone, dust, he is officially an Ex-Snape. Which isn’t to say he isn’t ridiculously easy to resurrect in fic, of course. I’m all about the AU action! (Epilogue? What epilogue?)
But leaving aside his death scene (which would have bothered me a LOT less was he actually SHOWN more during the book), I’m more about what made him tick while he was still alive, personally.
I never took the HBP ending at face value. I liked to play with different versions of why, but it always seemed obvious to me that his narrative function and all that we saw of him in previous books wasn’t just to set him up as The One Who Betrayed Dumbledore. Of course, it’s easy to say in retrospect, but at least among my flist, I noticed that seemed to be the majority opinion from the very beginning ,even if some accused of ‘knee-jerk reactions’ at the time (and to echo Nelson from the Simpsons : *points* HA-HA!).
Snape/Lily, or The Monster That Removed Snape’s Third Dimention
I’ve been doing a lot of thinking about the way Rowling ‘explained’ Snape’s shifting loyalties, and I’ve come to the conclusion that she just…didn’t. Not explicitly, not conclusively, and not to any degree of satisfaction. Those memories Snape gave to Harry, were only just that: glimpses, isolated incidents that while undoubtedly very important and crucial, were nevertheless out of context, and without any access to the thoughts/backstory in them.
Yes, Snape loved Lily. Whether he was in love with her, specifically all those years after is still subject to debate, imo. Schoolboy crush aside, the fact remains that she was the first (and possibly the only) friend he ever had-why would that not be enough for her death to still torture him after all those years? Why would that not be enough for him to want to guard her son? And hell, why would that not be enough for the freakin’ Bambi Patronus? Is romantic love somewhat more privileged than friendship?
Look at the theme of the book-if HBP was all about the intensity of teen romance and twu wub (as badly as it may have been written), DH was at heart a Triofest, about the *friendship* that binds them (disclaimer: this is by no means a slam on Trioshippers. We all enjoy teh Groupsex). Yes, the romance was still there, and yes, we got the Epilogue Of Doom, but it all took a backseat to the *really* important relationship in the books: the Trio Core. After all, it’s not to Ginny Harry reaches out to after the dust has settled, but to Ron and Hermione. (cue much giggling and nudging from Trio shippers, and the sound of typewriters writing comfort!sex in the Headmaster’s Office. In front of the portraits, for SHAME!).
I think most of us can agree that friendship is a pretty damned IMPORTANT theme in the books-so why would it be such a stretch to assume that having caused the death of his one friend would be such a catalyst in Snape’s redemptive journey? Or that the memory is just as painful in the present as it ever was? Or that seeing some tangible reminder of that person wouldn’t provide him comfort in his last moments?
Yes, of course it can be interpreted the other way, and Snape could be still carrying a torch for her. I’m an UC shipper, I’m all about reading the romantic subtext anywhere I can get it. But as far as I’m concerned, it's not set in stone.
A selfish redemptive journey, or Why Couldn’t Snape Do It For The Children?!111
Some people seem a bit miffed about the fact that Snape’s change of loyalties seem to have been sparked by the fact someone he cared about was hurt, and to hell with all the victims that came before. No Young DE Snape vomiting his guts out the first time he witnessed torture (though I’m fairly sure Draco tossed ALL his cookies throughout the summer *g*), no noble gesture of saving some random Muggle family (and their cats too!), no Sartrian existential crisis about his purpose in life and the nature of evil.
Er, are you KIDDING me? Of COURSE it’s different when it’s someone you care about, of COURSE people can be selfish when it comes to placing more worth on some lives than others! Snape is hardly alone in this. Harry’s determination to stop Voldemort started from the plain and simple fact that he killed his parents. Dumbledore may or may not have developed his anti-Muggle biases of his youth based on what happened to his sister, and was most definitely wrenched from it because of her death, Lucius and Narcissa’s love for Draco trumped even the famous Malfoy self-preservation, Molly mysteriously turned into a Bellatrix-killing Xena to protect her family…need I go on?
Snape in his DE days was probably a cruel, amoral bastard who could justify what he did and saw by dehumanizing the victims-but it’s hard for the victims to remain abstract and faceless when it’s someone you care about, someone who used to (still does?) care about you. The fact that this is what started his shift in loyalties, and the fact that’s why he protected her son doesn’t mean that it’s ALL that there was to his motivation.
Protecting Lily’s son (as well as the one person who can defeat Voldemort) doesn’t explain his reluctance to kill Dumbledore, or the fact the Sectusempra was aimed at a DE, not George (though personally, I would have been amused if it was. That’s for all those pranks during Potions class, you little twat!), or his outrage at being called a coward, or the fact he did indeed do his best to make sure the DE regime at Hogwarts never reached its full potential horror (Detention with HAGRID? Gimme a break). It doesn’t mean that Snape secretely *likes* teh chydruns or that he cries himself to sleep every night over the things he’s done. It just means that when the chips are down, Snape, unpleasant, bastard misanthrope that he is, will still do the right thing.
Why the memories? Well, for one thing, Dumbledore *instructed* him to give Harry those memories. And for another, I don’t think Snape is someone you can just *explain* in a neat and wrapped manner, so it’s better to go with the simplest explanation. It’s not a lie, but it’s not the *whole* truth either-he doesn’t owe that, to Harry OR Dumbledore.
I’m sure the above might sound like denial or fanwanking to some, and if that’s the case, be my guest. Opinions are like assholes, etc. But I’m actually, if not satisfied, then at peace with Snape in Deathly Hallows. He’s more human than we assumed, definitely more emo, and a touch more girly (a DOE?!?), but one chapter doesn’t automatically negate all the info we’ve gotten in the first six books. It simply adds one more layer to a deeply fascinating, flawed, complex character. And I miss him already-you have no idea how much.
R.I.P, Severus. It’s been one hell of a ride.
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no subject
Date: 2007-07-25 04:36 pm (UTC)Hi, fandom!
Snape's fuel being Lily doesn't mean that the only thing Snape cared about was Lily.
Love and kisses,
Lilith
Harry's strenght comes from the fury of learning that his parents were murdered. Dumbledore's change of heart came when his sister died and his
beloved boyfriendfriend Gellert (gotta love the NAME, it sounds like an old man who lives in a cottage in the north of Sweden, chewing tobacco and shoting birds) turned out to be slightly scarier than he thought.The only one who doesn't have emotional reasons for his actions is Tom Riddle and Tom Riddle is an evil overlord. Go figure.
Also, did anyone else start crying when Kreacher led the house-elves in battle with the battle-cry "Fight! Fight! Fight, against Voldemort! Fight, for brave master Regulus!" *shifty looks around* Okay, only me then. It was just so beautiful that this bitter little creature found a cause worth fighting for omg. My heart.
no subject
Date: 2007-07-25 04:45 pm (UTC)Hi, fandom!
Snape's fuel being Lily doesn't mean that the only thing Snape cared about was Lily.
Love and kisses,
Lilith
Well, I knew *you* would get it. Now if only I could replace the entirety of fandom with Lilith clones. (Fics would be 70% shorter and 90% angstier, Femslash and obscure characters would take over, the Church of Snape would become the official religion, and there would be an increase of Snapledore...er. I'll live with that last part).
I want to write Albus+Gellert in my notebook and draw little hearts over it, I do.
Kreacher leading the Elves into battle was the BEST part of that chapter, closely followed by Sybill and her balls (literal AND metaphorical).
no subject
Date: 2007-07-25 05:39 pm (UTC)About the children... Do you know when I got the first inkling that I liked Snape? My full blown love for him was in GoF when he showed the dark mark but before that, in CoS I just loved it when he learns that someone has taken a student to the Chamber of Secrets and he grips the back of a chair really hard. I mean... awwww! He might be mean to the little darlings but he does care!
As for that Sectumsempra who missed, I too had thought that he meant to get George but it was actually a Death Eater that he tried to maim AND that Death Eater was targeting none other than Remus J. Lupin!! I mean, WTF he saved his life!! (well, not a very long life but still).
What is it with cheapskates who borrow our books and they are super slow readers? The geek at work has had mine since Monday and he hasn't finished! For shame!
no subject
Date: 2007-07-25 05:51 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2007-07-25 10:12 pm (UTC)That's what did it for me as well! I mean he was my favorite from that point on. So cute!
Oh, and I agree with this post. Since when do personal motivations make a character less interesting? Just look at dear Albus.
Not sure that I agree that Snape is dead, though. :/ It changes every ten minutes.
no subject
Date: 2007-07-26 12:08 am (UTC)even if some accused of ‘knee-jerk reactions’ at the time (and to echo Nelson from the Simpsons : *points* HA-HA!).
Yeah, I note how there's a conspicuous silence on that topic from some members of the fandom. The "Snape Apologists" were right OMGZ!
no subject
Date: 2007-07-26 09:15 am (UTC)I spent a good portion of last night discussing all the ways he could have survived with
We can't *know* for sure, either way, and the fact it's the last book means there's nothing to stop us from speculating.
no subject
Date: 2007-07-26 09:16 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2007-07-26 09:17 am (UTC)Haha, were you expecting anything else? Some people wouldn't know self-awareness if it did a naked lapdance for them.
*wankz*
Date: 2007-07-26 10:30 am (UTC)CAN IT BE SEKRIT MOCK POST TIEM NAO OH I THINK SO.
Re: *wankz*
Date: 2007-07-27 09:07 am (UTC)Re: *wankz*
Date: 2007-07-27 09:16 am (UTC)Re: *wankz*
Date: 2007-07-27 09:18 am (UTC)Re: *wankz*
Date: 2007-07-27 09:21 am (UTC)You total apologist. Bet you'd make him live in Lancashire.